Here is an exchange I recently had with an academic. She pretends to be open-minded but is clearly trying to dupe me into the NPR narrative of, “They aren’t Nazis but they lead to that.” When she finally realizes I’m not going to take the bait, she reveals her true identity. It’s very tricky spotting these frauds. I thought the chick from NBC would be one but she wasn’t. Best to assume their intentions are not good.

I thought it prudent to include this email exchange as it covers the same arguments we are forced to go over again and again and again.

[Emails presented near-verbatim, warts and all. Samantha Kutner’s portions are in bold, Gavin’s replies are in regular font.]

SAMANTHA KUTNER (Researcher, University of Nevada) wrote:

Good Evening, Mr. McInnes, 

A fellow PB fellow member has given his consent for me to share this part of our interview. I invite you to weigh in on this issue. 

PB member: “I would agree with you on your assessment. However we clearly aren’t everyone’s taste and that’s ok. Some people like a glass of wine with dinner and some people like a shot of cheap whiskey. Our humor is the cheap whiskey. It may not be that refined, or taste that good with salad, but its fun to do and rebellious to social norms.”

Sam: “Thats fair. Would you say that neo nazis might like cheap whiskey more than the average wine drinker, or at east inhabit the same bar where whiskey is imbibed?”

We continued with this analogy. I asked “If the PB’s represent cheap whiskey, then can the alt right, white nationalists and neo nazis could be akin to moonshine?”

He said they were more like “huff stolen gasoline out of a 1986 Honda Civic,” which I found surprisingly funny.

So we revised this analogy together. I asked him what I will ask you now. 

1. If you have a taste for cheap whiskey, would it be that hard to develop a taste for “huff”?


2. Have you seen PB members develop a taste for “huff”, having started with only a preference for cheap whiskey?


Jesus, Lord, you people are OBSESSED! Where is this kind of scrutiny with Islam? Can you go interview a moderate Muslim about the Koran and ask if it’s a stepping stone to radical Islam? THAT’S a valid link. This is not.

If we share any traits with Nazis, they are irrelevant. All dogs are mammals. All cats are mammals. All dogs are not cats. That’s called the “guilt by association” fallacy and we learn it in high school. 

The alt-left has far more in common with the alt-right. They are both anti-Semitic, atheist, socialists who are obsessed with identity politics. In that sense, YOU have more in common with these Nazis than we do. 

I am not taking your bait. It’s a mentally ill pursuit and “That way madness lies.” 

If you associate us with the alt-right or neo-nazis or white nationalists, we will sue you into oblivion.

I have scrutinized Islam. 

I have a publication scrutinizing the Saudi Arabian Risk Reduction Initiative. [SHE LATER SENDS SAID PUBLICATION.]

If you saw the full interview, you would see that I am not lumping you in with them.

I am exploring the possibility that more extreme groups may use yours as a platform, as they did in Charlottesville.


Additionally, I am interviewing Antifa members as well.

I don’t know if it’s any consolation, but your members, with the exception of former member “stickman” have treated me with far more respect than Antifa members have.

An Antifa member, for example, said that I was a troll who had no understanding of the IRB process. I forwarded all of my certifications to her as a result and heard nothing back.

The reason I’m conducting these interviews is to find the truth about what happened in Charlottesville and in the battles of Berkeley amidst all these competing narrative surrounding it.

There’s are media depictions of the events that tend to favor left-leaning organizations and there’s far-right outlets that distort the narrative as well. 

I’m of the opinion that the truth lies somewhere between the hyper polarized parties and I’m trying to find that out right now.


I am sure you’re sick of me already, but I want to show you that I am who I say I am.

Not an Antifa member, not a journalist looking for a story, but a researcher.

This angle has been done to death and it has no basis. You are getting the Charlottesville thing from NPR who we sent legal notice to. PBs have THOUSANDS of members all over the world. Charlottesville may have had one or two EX PBs who had been banished for their views. The organizer was NOT a PB. He had tried to infiltrate us twice by lying and saying he’s not alt-right. When we discovered the truth, he was booted. That is NOT A PATTERN. To call us a gateway drug is like calling country music, or the army, or patriotism in general a gateway drug. It’s insane.

I can give you hundreds of stories of this club leading to men proposing, men starting their own businesses, men getting their wives pregnant. THAT is a pattern. 

Yes we weed Nazis out of our group. All moral people do this. I wish the left would do it to their radicals. They totally ignore black racists in BLM. They ignore pro-Sharia Muslims like Sarsour. Where are those articles? Those are patterns. The right has been telling Nazis to fuck off since the 1950s. William F Buckley did it regularly at National Review. This wasn’t proof that NatRev was a gateway to Nazism. It was proof Buckley was a thorough and noble man. 

You people call us Nazis and when we deny it you say, “Why do you have to keep denying it? It must be a problem.” No. YOU are the problem. 

I would like to reiterate that I am not calling you a nazi and you have every right to take offense if I were. I am coming as a researcher who has only been fed news from major media outlets and would rather hear form actual individuals n both movements. 

As a researcher I see the inability of the regressive left to acknowledge that a disporportionate amount of suicide bombers are of the Muslim faith, mainly Salafi Jihadism. But in the quest for policital correcetness people default to “not all Muslims.” My rebuttal is “, but some…..and not just some, but a disproportionate amount do commit these acts, so it is religiously motivated and we have to address it as such.”

I truly want to stress that I am not calling you a nazi. 

I am curious about how you weed out the actual nazis & white nationalists who have tried to infiltrate your group in the past.

Addiitonally, an Antifa member said that you can’t completely separately yourselves from the alt right or white nationalists because they provide you protection from antifa members at events. 

I am skeptical of this claim and want to hear the truth of the matter. 


Also, I am talking to Mr. Van Dyke. Several members have asked me to contact him. I do not know if he is your official lawyer who represents the group or a Proud Boy member who happens to be a very vocal lowyer. Some members do not agree with the way he “plays around too much,”  but I don’t know what specifically they are referring to.

He has agreed to have me interview him. 

I am trying to get perspective of members within your group, not impart my own opinions of how your group should act or slander you as neo nazis.

I think its quite wonderful that so many of your members have benefitted from your group

Regarding your previous statements…

“I am curious about how you weed out the actual nazis & white nationalists who have tried to infiltrate your group in the past.”

We make it very clear that we do not tolerate the alt-right at our meet ups. If someone goes to an event or even talks that way at a meet-up. They’re gone. 

I’ve literally said this 30k times.

“Addiitonally, an Antifa member said that you can’t completely separately yourselves from the alt right or white nationalists because they provide you protection from antifa members at events.” 

This is completely false. Why the fuck does the media keep using antifa as a credible source? They said we were on “looter patrol” in Texas and then Will Sommer at The Hill put it in quotes

We were there rescuing people and handing out supplies. Yes we were armed. It was fucking dangerous. Everyone from Teen Vogue to CNN sees this domestic terror group as a reputable source. It’s downright bizarre. They are mentally ill degenerates with no political agenda other than chaos. 

Your source is talking about the “ALT KNIGHTS.” He sees the word alt and assumes it means Alt-Right. He (likely she, actually) is willfully ignoring alt-lite or any other possibility. Chapman has made it very clear he is not a white nationalist. 

Here’s what I keep asking you people. Why would we lie? What’s our motive? Does David Duke pretend he loves Jews? Does Richard Spencer pretend he loves diversity? Do we dupe guys into joining and then secretly brainwash them into becoming Nazis? Why? I was told I couldn’t talk at NYU because I was recruiting for my white power movement. Why would I go to NYU to do that? Also, what’s with our black, latino, gay, Asian, and Jewish members? Are they masochists? Do they walk around at meet-ups with a dog collar on fetching us tea? 

This is why I don’t call the myopic obsession with Nazis simply “fake news.” I call it “mentally ill news.”


Van Dyke is a PB who happens to be a lawyer. He sends legal notices to EVERYONE who calls us alt-right and we proceed with litigation if they don’t change it. 

He has received death threats and legal attacks. Liberal companies have tried to have him disbarred. They spread lies about him. One good example is that – many years ago – he was caught with “hate literature.” This is true. He did have banned books such as Mein Kampf and Elders of Zion. He also had Catcher in the Rye and The Satanic Verses. IT WAS FOR A BANNED BOOKS CLASS HE WAS TAKING AT SCHOOL!

The liberal media is chasing Bigfoot with this Nazi hunting garbage. All they can find so far is Charlottesville and they will not shut up about it. 

Watching the videos now. You are a brilliant rhetorician. The way that you differientiate between the various groups and the analogies you provide are quite good.

Does everyone get the joke?

I’m not talking about Antifa members, because its already been established they do not.

Forgive my cynnicism, but I operate on the assumption that the majority of the American public has a very low capacity for nuanced rhetoric.

Is it possible that there are people who take your rhetorical tap dancing as a literal truth?

Ah, so you’re real agenda rears its ugly head. You DON’T take things at face value after all and are so dead set on the Nazi narrative, when anyone doesn’t fit it, they are “rhetorical tap dancing.” You are an immoral human being who is fundamentally incurious. I understand that is common but why you chose journalism confuses me.

Is this a tap dance? Or is this you learning about something you previously knew nothing about.  

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Gavin McInnes

Written by Gavin McInnes

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